Photo credit: Dahlia Katz
In June 2021, Artistic Director Marjorie Chan, Associate Artistic Director Indrit Kasapi, Intern Dramaturge Merlin Simard, and Metcalf Artistic Director Intern Rinchen Dolma met together on zoom to reflect on their dramaturgical journeys— and discuss the important ways in which the practice has evolved.
This is an edited transcription of a 75 minute discussion. For access to the full video (auto-captioned) please click here.
*Merlin’s position was made possible with the assistance of Early Career Dramaturgy Fund from the Literary Managers and Dramaturges of the Americas / Rinchen’s position was made possible by the Metcalf Foundation / Huge thanks to our Patrons Services staff Rose Goodwin for transcribing the conversation!
What is Dramaturgy?
There are a lot of different roles a dramaturge can take.
In a technical sense, perhaps it is an educational and intellectual role, that is research focused (like a fact-checker), but in a collaborative process they are perhaps in a facilitative role: where they are helping playwrights get to a certain goal.
In a way, the dramaturge is the person who is a neutral voice in a play development process. A dramaturge has no agenda. They are there to observe and say “this is what is identified as the vision of the play” and to ask questions about it.
Yes, they also tell the playwright: “This is something you want to convey, and it’s not clearly coming through. Let’s ask more questions to figure out how to make it clearer”.
They also can say, “you have a play about a farm, let me tell you about all the farms in the world”.
Or, it can be collective. Speaking of farms, there is a TPM show called The Farm Show. They probably didn’t have an officially designated “dramaturge” in that collective creation — But I would say that the actual farmers who the collective members lived with, who came to watch the show and were able to give feedback — were doing a dramaturgical practice. So in some ways, that is collective dramaturgy.
In my work at Made in Exile, I had to do dramaturgical work out of necessity. We do a lot of collective work, so we have to put a lot of care for each of the participants as their stories unfold. And in order to put in the care we naturally had to do dramaturgical work.
I had no clue what dramaturgy was until I participated in the Paprika Festival, where Marjorie had this amazing powerpoint presentation (featuring cats) about dramaturgy. I realized that this was what I was already doing at Made in Exile.
Yeah, I remember talking to Rinchen after that presentation, about how affirming it was to realize that there is a vocabulary to describe what I’ve been doing naturally. I think language is often used to gatekeep young artists from finding agency in their work. It was affirming to have that vocabulary with us.
It’s interesting that we mention “gatekeeping”. The position of “dramaturge” historically, has often been a position of the gatekeeper. It was the person that you needed to “get a script by” and if this person doesn’t advocate for your script, you wouldn’t be produced. You can see how it has been quite problematic, as it doesn’t actually speak to the practice of dramaturgy itself.
The role of a dramaturge has always existed. They were people in artists’ circle of trusted friends who can read your script and ask great questions. That person can be someone who is not in theatre, but whose opinions you trust. Sometimes they are your peers— people are now owning that and naming themselves dramaturges, and I think that democratization of the role is really great.
Dramaturge vs Director
If a Dramaturge’s job is to help playwrights or creators articulate their vision clearly, the Director’s job, I think, is to interpret that vision and expand it and share it. Part of the work of the Director is to convince the playwright that they see and care for the same thing.
For plays that are looking at a first premiere, building that trust is really important. Once it is in production, we are no longer just talking about the text. It encompasses so many different parts of the production.
A dramaturge may never say “I don’t think we need to say this text. We can stage it instead”, but a director may have that conversation and demonstrate it to the playwright.
When I work with Indrit, sometimes we merge our roles and both act as dramaturges and as directors. I think this fluidity comes from the trust that we built from working closely with each other for 10 years.
How did you get into Dramaturgy?
As an actor, I was often invited to read and participate in new play developments and workshops. Producers and directors have an eye for actors who are great for a workshop space, who is collaborative and insightful, who helps the work move forward. I feel like I had an active kind of career in that — at the same time, I was doing well as a playwright.
To be honest at the time there weren’t many playwrights of colour and dramaturges of colour. So when people needed that presence in their work-in-progress I was often invited to the room, and I feel very privileged to have been that person: to be invited into Indigenous spaces, Black spaces, South Asian spaces. I think the industry was recognizing the need for new dramaturgical voices.
I actually started being asked in dance spaces to be a “movement dramaturge”. I started to learn what kind of dramaturge I wanted to be, by doing it. There are people who dedicate their life to dramaturgy, that hasn’t been my case.
What skills do you need to become a dramaturge?
In a technical aspect, you’d need to know about playwriting and about theatre. You need to practice having artistic conversations: When you watch a play you need to practice how to put your experience into words – maybe start practicing talking about them to your friends or with colleagues.
You need to also understand the emotional capacity that is required in an aspect of Dramaturgy. Your work can require a late night phone call with the playwright, or a formal sit-down meeting. Honestly, you have to understand that no matter what you prepared for that day, it may not be in sync with where the playwright might be on that day. So you have to be flexible, know how to approach things in different ways. You need to prepare a lot of notes, but you also need the emotional intelligence to decide how to facilitate those notes.
A dramaturge has to know how to navigate situations and conflicts: and be able to negotiate a speed or a direction of progress — so that is a skill you need.
On emotional labour
I try to be very specific about the kind of projects to take on: I need to be vibing with the work in order to be able to put in that emotional labour. It’s really hard to say no when artists ask me to be a dramaturge on their project, but it’s on me to assess, if I will be the most effective dramaturge for that artist and for that project.
I think it’s really important to have that meeting before taking projects on, to help the artists understand who you are too. I talk about how communication works for me, if English is my first language, so what can be lost in translation.
Yes, it’s about talking about each other’s needs. You eventually realize, one artist may need to limit 3-4 notes per day so that they can focus on it. Another person might need you to sit together and go through as many notes together as possible. Someone may need constant affirmation in order to move forward. They are also going to need different things at different stages of the creation process.
On giving notes
I think something I also want to discuss is the ability for the artists to process notes. Especially when a dramaturge is an Artistic Director of a presenting company, a lot of artists will interpret the note as “if I don’t do as they say, they won’t produce my play”.
At the same time, I see a lot of artists who will ignore dramaturgical notes, who are unable to process notes – this moment can feel really frustrating as dramaturges, especially if you see the playwright’s potential and you feel invested and you want them to see it so badly.
Indrit and I, as directors of Theatre Passe Muraille, we do have an agenda: and that is that we want to be producing your show (laughs). I do see that as directors, in our positions, our words can be harmful even if it is incidental. This is why now as a director I don’t give notes in the early parts of the creation process.
I think it’s interesting when you are an independent dramaturge, as opposed to being a company dramaturge. Notes from an artistic director— I think can feel so daunting for artists, the interest in the work can feel really conditional. I think it’s really hard and I wonder if dramaturges can also play a role of mitigating between Artistic Directors and the Playwrights.
In my community work context, I had a lot of growing pains because like you, Indrit, I grew up in a very tough love situation. When I see something in someone that they don’t see in themselves, you try to pull that out from them and when it’s not happening, you start to get frustrated. I think that’s when notes can begin to be problematic, because there are some things they may not be ready to excavate that part of themselves.
As a dramaturge you also have to admit to moments when you are wrong. You can advise, maybe you can advise 3 times, but if a playwright makes a decision nevertheless you have to learn to back off. It’s not your script and you might not be seeing what they are seeing. Maybe they will prove you wrong!
On caring
Is there a way for the dramaturges to play a role in reducing harm?
What role does trauma play in art? I am of the opinion that it is NOT impossible to create while you are still experiencing trauma and harm. I say this from experience, and people hate this opinion, but I think with the right kind of support, you don’t need to have healed before creating work. We’re healing all the time, there’s trauma all the time. If I stopped, everything will stop. How do you create work when there is trauma in past, present, and in future?
It is about care. The dramaturges’ job is not a therapist nor a counselor. If I must, I’d say they are more like a coach. The dramaturge needs to be clear about what they offer, and what boundaries are needed in the creation process. Dramaturges ask questions, and these questions can be: “What support are you getting for yourself? What are you doing after the workshop to take care of yourself? How do you want to process this later?”
Advice for artists
I include myself in this; As a young artist, I remember walking into a dramaturgy meeting and what I really wanted to hear was “this is a good play”. I didn’t have a lot of questions, I just wanted validation. But thinking back, it was actually my job to validate my own work. I know I’ve done good work and I have something to say: the dramaturge is here to add clarity.
I think it’s fair for artists to not know what they want to say through the work. So a dramaturge may ask “I’m reflecting back what I am getting from your piece. Is that the effect you want?”. A lot of emerging artists will say “what do I do to make it better?” and I back off from those questions. It’s much better when the dramaturge asks questions, and the playwright offers the actual direction.
I think another advice I’d give is, if you are an artist who enjoys a broader, more alternative methods of creation, find a dramaturge who is equally as open and experimental as you.
A good point in your process, at which you should approach a dramaturge, is when you have a concrete project of sorts (a draft ready, for example). At this point you should look for a dramaturge who you can commit to consult with, for the entire duration of the creation process.
Another thing I would say is don’t make the assumption that the artists at the presenting companies will become your director or dramaturges. Take that agency and ownership and find dramaturges that work well with you, who understands your practice, who you can trust. You will have to experience different ways of working and different dramaturges — When you find the right experience, you will know.
Born in Toronto to settlers from Hong Kong, Marjorie Chan is the Artistic Director of Theatre Passe Muraille. As an award-winning interdisciplinary artist, she primarily identifies as a writer with specific interest in contemporary opera and collective forms, while also maintaining an active practice as a dramaturge and director.
རིན་ཆེན་སྒྲོལ་མ་|Rinchen Dolma (ཁོ་/མོ་/she/her) was born in Kathmandu, Nepal and is currently based in Tkarón:to. She is a community arts practitioner, performer, an emerging playwright, dramaturge and director. She is also the founder and Artistic Director of MADE IN EXILE, an arts-based initiative that engages young Tibetan creatives in exploring their complex identities through contemporary mediums of storytelling in exile. Rinchen developed སྒྲོལ་མ་ [DOLMA] at Aki Studios at part of the 2019 Paprika Festival’s Directors Lab. Most recently, Rinchen joined Factory Theatre’s Foundry 2021 program, a new work creation group facilitated by Nina Lee Aquino, where she has been developing a full-length play piece called “July 1st.” She is the recipient of the 2020 Metcalf Foundation Performing Arts Program in Artistic Direction under Marjorie Chan.
Born in Albania, Indrit Kasapi and his family are privileged to make Tkarón:to their home since 2000. He is the Founding and current Artistic Producer for lemonTree creations and Associate Artistic Director for Theatre Passe Muraille. Indrit has been a company member of the award winning dance theatre company CORPUS sincea 2008. He’s a graduate of the National Theatre School of Canada, a 2018 Harold Award Recipient and a 2020 Dora Nominated performer. Indrit believes his art must provide necessary discourse to fight against white supremacy, colonialism, heteronormativity and misogyny.
Merlin Simard (she/they/iel/elle) is a performer, playwright, dramaturge, and filmmaker originally from Tiohtiá:ke (Montréal) now based in Tkarón:to (Toronto).
Her practice focuses on themes of access, gender euphoria, technology, and multilingual performance. They co-founded and co-run, bigT, a theatre collective seeking to uplift intersectional trans* voices. As a performer, Merlin has worked with Stratford, Crow’s, Outside The March, Buddies In Bad Times, and many other theatre companies across Canada. She has also acted on Grand Army (Netflix) and This Life (CBC).
They are developing several projects spanning across theatre and VR with the support of Theatre Passe Muraille (FEAR OF MEN), Théâtre Français de Toronto (ZADDY ISSUES), and Nightwood Theatre (a free britney) amongst others. @hussy4hussy